Minutes for Atlantian Curia held at Sapphire Joust XII, 29 May 2011

Curia was opened by TRM, Michael and Seonaid. The following curia members were present:

Crown Prince and Princess (Cuán and Pádraigín)
Seneschal (Alesia Gillefalyn)
Exchequer (Anne of Carthew)
Earl Marshal (Otto von Schwartzkatz)
Minister of Arts & Sciences (Jeanmaire du Domremy)
Mistress of Lists (Ceridwen ferch Owain)
Web Minister (Talorgen Hersir)

1. It was announced that the Officers of State (OofS) have gone through the sections of law pertaining to them and are making updates as appropriate. Those updates will be published online for populace review.
2. TRM had distributed a message to the territorial Barons and Baronesses which They had written to the populace (to be distributed via the baronage) for the purpose of clarifying some of the many questions in regard to the symbols of rank issue. The message can be found at http://atlantia.sca.org/rankmissive.php. A question was raised about membership in the shires, so the kingdom seneschal will distribute the message to the entire seneschalate for distribution.
3. TRM discussed removing the current requirement in law (3.1) for each Crown to hold Curia once per reign. The rationale is that sometimes there is no need to change law and so there is no need to have Curia for no purpose. We will need to determine the right reporting structure for the Great Officers of State (GOofS) to present reports to TRM.
4. TRM want to redefine the “Officers of State” as all Great officers and their deputies that are defined in law. All OofS will have a seat at curia. TRM will have to approve their warrants, and their renewal process will mirror the GOofS. Rationale: These deputies are doing the work equivalent (of the great officers) in their specific area. The great officers are still able to create other deputies for specific things that are not defined in law, and those deputies would not be “officers of state”.
5. Officers of state all currently have a term limit, and TRM want to change that structure. TRM would like to modify the term limits so that OofS have no term limits, but after the first term, have an annual renewal. This enables to Crown to let a warrant expire, allowing the officer to graciously step down, without all the difficulty previously encountered in removing or suspending an officer. This also means that an OofS can have indefinite renewals of their term of office.
6. TRM would like to have the same removal of term limits to apply to territorial baronage. The question was raised about how long the initial term (for both officers and baronage) would be? TRM would like the initial terms to be the same (either 3 or 4 years), but they are open to feedback on the question. Send Feedback
7. The question was raised about pollings of confidence for territorial baronage. TRM would like to move pollings online and conduct them electronically, vastly reducing the current cost for mailings and the difficulty in coordinating the polling process.
8. It was stated that TRM were lumping B&Bs and OofS together. It was asked if that was the same? TRM clarified that it was only for terms of office, and made it clear that this discussion applies only to Officers of State as defined in law, not the terms of branch officers. Those terms (of branch officers) are still defined by the GOofS.
9. TRM addressed the point in Law 5.1 that territorial B&Bs receive a GoA when they step up. TRM would like to move awarding the GoA to the back end of the term, not the front end. TRM stated that the first thing you get is the job. After the job is done, then you get any awards. The intent is to make it the same as County or Duchy, that an individual receives awards upon the successful completion of the initial term. An example of the problem with the current situation is that a pair could step up (and received their GoAs). Then after a couple weeks, he quits but she works her butt off. At the end of the term, they both have the same precedence. TRM want to move the award to the back end, and want to change it to the completion of the first term (rather than waiting for successful “completion of the office” in case that a B&B extends/continues past the initial term).
10. TRM stated that they are NOT going to discuss the next item, but are requesting feedback. Other kingdoms have a unique title for former territorial B&Bs, and they would like for Atlantia to have one as well. The term would be distinct to indicate that the person is a former territorial baron or baroness (in order to distinguish them from “plain” Court Baronies). TRM and the seneschal need to work the specific wording and evaluate possible terms. It was asked if the term would be grandfathered? Yes, that is the intent. TRM would like commentary on the proposal. Send Feedback
11. TRM stated that to date we have approx 450 Court Baronies. In the early years it was averaging about 5 per reign (for the first 10 years). We are now over 10 per reign. There have been as many as 20 in a single reign. Other kingdoms have a limit on the number that can be awarded in a given reign, and TRM would like to institute a limit in Atlantia. There are two options for the limit, either include awards for former territorial B&Bs in the limit or specifically exclude them. The first option is to include former territorial B&Bs in the limit, but there exists the possibility of leaving someone out (during a reign of heavy changeover). The second option is to exclude them from the limit of CBs that can be awarded. Former territorial B&Bs can still receive a court barony, but their award would not be counted toward the limit). The third option is the special title (and make it different from a court barony).
    
    It was asked if the kingdom’s population has increased correspondingly to the number of court baronies? No. We gave about 50 in the first 10 years, then 150 or so in the next 10 years, and then approx 250 in the last 10 years.
    
    It was asked how does this affect precedence? TRM explained that there is a difference between an order of march and the order of precedence (OP). The order of march is dependent on who is in place today (and ordered by the founding date of each barony), but the OP is based on the structure from Corpora. The OP starts with royal peers, duchies then counties, based on date. Bestowed peerages are all the equal, based on the date of their patents. Grants and Awards of Arms have a similar structure based on date of the grant or award. The status of CBs and former territorial B&Bs has no place n the OP. It is based on GoA or AoAs.
    
    TRM were asked what their current thoughts are on the limit? Her Majesty’s recommendation is 3 per reign (excluding former territorial B&Bs). It is currently undecided and TRM would like input. Please provide TRM with feedback. Send Feedback
    
    It was asked if the reduced number would increase the precedence. No, not the precedence but perhaps the value. If they are given out less, then the personal value of the award is greater.
12. TRM stated they have a couple of issues to address in regards to Crown Tournament. First is that through a combination of endeavors in the past, Atlantia has created a situation where an individual doesn’t have to be a subject of Atlantia to fight in Crown (because the Crown can waive requirement 6.2.1.5.7). TRM plan to remove the ability for the Crown to waive that requirement for entrance to Crown Tournament.
13. The other Crown Tournament issue is their intent to remove is the event attendance requirement (6.2.5.1.10.3). There is no real way to enforce that requirement nor guarantee whether someone really attended x number of events. Additionally, Corpora defines an “event” too loosely, to include fight practices.
14. TRM announced that the MOL will become an OofS under the marshallate. The MOL will report through the marshal, and the kingdom will no longer have duplicate databases and workflows. The Earl Marshal stated that the way the MOL and the MIC interact should not change. The two positions are equal at an event, not one working for the other. The individuals working at an event are peers, not one subordinate of the other.
15. TRM stated they have a concern about tournament list pairings. They said that the kingdom has a situation where the Crown Tournament pairings are set, and then the Crown or the MIC steps in and changes the pairings. TRM want to stop that because if the list was drawn up correctly, and you are changing it then you are cheating. So barring a mistake being made in the pairings, there is no reason it should be changed and it should be played out.
    
    For example, at Crown tourney, the Crown gets to determine the format of the tourney (within certain limits). Once the style is conveyed to the MOL and the list is drawn up, that should be it. The Crown, the MIC, and the MOL should be signing that list. It is done. Now, if all three agree that an error was made, they pairing can be re-drawn and they all sign the list again. No one has unilateral authority to change that list. It was asked how does this affect things when fighters request an agreed change (so that fighters who fight together at practice don’t fight each other in a big tourney)? What about speed tourneys? TRM decided to start with the limitation for Crown Tournament, and not have it affect lists that don’t need to be mucked with. TRMs don’t want to micro-manage, so it was decided to leave it to Crown Tournament.
16. HRM Seonaid covered several items, none of which are for discussion. First is their intent to remove the appendix of Kings & Queens from law (because it is no longer necessary).
17. The Arms of the Heirs are defined in law and this is also no longer needed because Laurel has made a clear ruling on the arms of the Heirs.
18. The Order of Rose will no longer a Patent order because the Patent comes with the County.
19. HRM announced a date change on the kingdom calendar for the Golden Rose Tournament to be the 3rd weekend of April.
20. The section of law which addresses children of the King & Queen as prince/princess royale will be removed. This cannot be mandated in law.
21. The Purple escalloped shell will move to the awards section rather than remain in its current place (Appendix G).
22. The award list will be re-structured to group things in a sensible manner. There will be no change in wording, just a re-order to group things in a more cohesive manner.
23. The Orders of High Merit were originally made retroactive to members who lived in kingdom at the time. This will be changed to be retroactive to all previous awardees. TRM will notify the current monarchs of all kingdoms in order to satisfy the requirements of Corpora.
24. The various age levels for various children’s award ages will go back in, rather than all children’s awards being for ages 1-17 as they are today.
25. Kingdom law section 3.6.2 will include electronic notification for curia
26. Kingdom law section 5.4, for baronial pollings, will be made more consistent so that polling responses are sent to the appropriate person.
27. TRM have received a proposal for GOA equestrian award. Would like to get comments and feedback on the proposal. Send Feedback
28. Atlantia currently has a ruling in event requirements that events cannot be within 150 road miles of each other, but there is a checkbox on the Spike form allowing conflict. This is a site-to-site by road miles measurement (not as crow flies or any other measurements). TRM’s intent is to remove the checkbox and not allow for conflicts. This does not change anything except no longer allowing groups to give permission for conflict.
    
    A significant amount of dialogue ensued. It was asked about an archery only event conflicting with a camping/heavy event? TRM feel that we have too many events now that are not different enough from each other.
    
    It was stated that we need to coordinate among the group seneschals in larger areas, such as Norfolk or NoVA-MD. If you try to do everything with a small group, it becomes really hard. The Lochmere B&B stated that we have over 700 paid members in MD and we only get 160 at a baronial event because of the conflicts.
    
    The kingdom seneschal stated that the kingdom currently has a problem with events being scheduled within 6 months of the event happening, and groups need to plan further out. If groups plan further out, then folks can plan to travel because they know about particular A&S events or archery events, or fighting events or whatever… Everyone knows that we have typical reserved events and it isn’t hard to ensure we can do that.
    
    It was stated that it takes a long time between spiking an event and the publication on the calendar! The response is that the kingdom needs some help in coding the website to do the things we want done, so that when it is posted/spiked today, it should show up online in the calendar tomorrow. Further, most groups are creating local websites for event info, and that isn’t tied to the Acorn publishing, so it isn’t that hard to get information out about events.
    
    A clarification was provided that events which are already booked/paid for/scheduled, none of the change will affect them. It will only affect events after the change goes into place.
    
    HRH Cuan stated we used to only do a few types of activities. As people are interested in the activity, it will happen (or not). It just depends on how much people want to do it. People wanted rapier to happen, and you can see the health of rapier in the kingdom now…
    
    It was stated that the limit used to be 100 miles, and TRM were asked if they would consider changing the limit back to 100 miles or another number? TRM stated that they are willing to consider a different number, but aren’t sure of the value because you will always find that one exception where two sites are just not far enough apart…
    
    The kingdom seneschal explained that currently the law is such you are only allowed to prevent conflict once a year. The intent is to reverse this and not allow conflict at all. She reiterated the desire to have groups spike early! She clarified that the kingdom isn’t going to let groups spike an event now for 10 years, but we are going to figure out the right wording, and how to allow groups to have a 5 year contract for a site. We are working the details. The focus of Curia is to help TRMs see the way forward that we want. Curia should advise TRM on the way forward for the kingdom.
    
    The kingdom seneschal stated that she will go and pull the Spike data for the last year and will run a Google shortest distance, door-to-door check and report the data back to the Curia. Send Feedback
    
    A discussion ensued about the challenges this may cause in places with traffic problems. TRM explained that we just had Crown Tourney, in probably the best place in the kingdom for an event, and we had a little over 300 people attend. HRM Michael stated that it sure seemed like there should have been a whole lot more people from the North but it seems that many of them don’t want to travel. Additionally, there are lots of places in the kingdom that have travel problems besides around DC, such as Raleigh, Norfolk, etc. It takes time, and it takes a commitment and some intelligent planning. Traffic affects everyone coming into the DC area (for an event) just as much it does those living there, so why make a special exception?
29. TRM stated that we have too many baronies and groups in the kingdom. We can’t really change that, but we can adjust the membership numbers required for group status and group elevation. The SCA membership numbers required for each type of group hasn’t changed since the SCA started. The kingdom wants to change the numbers required for a new barony. The number needs to go up. It doesn’t make any sense to keep low requirements when we are struggling to find officers for the groups we have now.
    
    The model of the SCA Board in the past, of wanting more and more distinct kingdoms, is now showing to be a problem. The Board now wants to see potential baronies have well over 50 members (because they know that membership fluctuates) so we probably won’t see any new kingdoms for a long time, nor should we see any new baronies in the kingdom. TRM plan to raise the numbers required for a new barony to be well above the current SCA standard.
30. The last item was a quick question about OofS policy changes that are being worked. All the policy changes will be posted on the law website so everyone can see the proposed changes but they don’t require a Curia.

Thanks are due to Master Terafan Greydragon for providing the minutes of this Curia.